Van Gogh

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Posts by Van Gogh

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  324

  RICHIE RED ALERT

  by RichieRich in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was on the phone speaking with verne thoren, presiding overseer of the willow springs, nc congregation of jehovah's witnesses.

  he tells me he knows of my possesssion of the flock book.

  he knows of my involvement on this site.

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  Van Gogh

  Richie, Going out in style toward a life of freedom, with your head held high, executing your plan with humor and courage. Take care! VG
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  45

  What are you doing tonight instead of passing crackers and wine?

  by ColdRedRain in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for starters, tonight, i'm going to hang out at my local church's neighborhood gathering and get some food, then i'm heading off to the local synagouge to celebrate my hebrew roots.

  how 'bout you guys?

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  Van Gogh

  Working my evening job right now (23.00 hours local time). The memorial has finished by now.

  My first memorial away - so will just wait and see how this 'statement' will be interpreted...
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  180

  Ghosts, Demons, or Imagination?

  by ButtLight in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, its happened again!

  but not to me this time, my 12 year old son.. last night he fell asleep on the couch, so i left him there and went to bed.

  he wolk up about 3 am, and walked upstairs to his bedroom.

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  Van Gogh

  Check out:
  
  http://www.mercola.com/2006/apr/6/fda_agrees_adhd_drugs_cause_kids_to_have_hallucinations.htm
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  14

  SUICIDE 'permanent solution to temporary problem'

  by DannyHaszard in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  some positive affirmations:

  "there is a (good) life after the watchtower cult"

  "well living is the best revenge"

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  Van Gogh

  A bro from my circle of friends in my neighboring cong committed suicide at the age of around 24 around 1987. He went to a hotel room and planned everything meticulously. He came from a large and loving, close JW family. When his boyfriends turned up at the funeral, it came out he had been actively gay.

  This cute little blond sister around 24 years old, pearl necklace and all, from another cong who visited our cong on occasion, committed suicide out of the blue about a year ago. She would always answer up dutifully at the WT-study. As far as I know, it was a complete mystery as to why she did it.

  My dad completely derailed in 1976 after 'reaching out' in an exemplary fashion for a couple of years as a leading, up-and-coming elder. This went on for about three years after which my mother committed suicide after having been on heavy anti-depressants for many years. My dad finally completely self-destructed on alcohol and anti-depressants about six months later. There was never a proper explanation as to what caused this to happen, but lately I have been considering the debasing and destructive side effects of JW beliefs and subculture, in which (premature) death can be considered either a very relative thing, a shortcut to paradise, or a very definite way out of an inescapable and stifling system.

  VG
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  26

  Crisis of Conscience

  by south african beef in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ive just ordered "crisis of conscience" from amazon.

  .

  i am already totally free from dubdom but will this book make sure that i never return?

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  Van Gogh

  I already despised almost everything about the Borg but... I still believed in the FD&S dogma and that the 'Sauls' in the GB were still anointed. So I felt it was my duty to somehow weather it out.
  But then someone gave me James Penton's Apocalypse Delayed and that gave me hope.
  Then when I read Don Cameron's Captives of a Concept, I considered the possibility that I was free to leave.
  Reading CoC shortly afterwards really clinched the deal for me: it was my ticket out. I remember thinking on page 27 in December 2005: I will never set foot in a Kindom Hall ever in my entire life again.
  CoC delivered everything it promised and I also found it offered consolation. I needed that, since the whole process only took a couple of months; everything happened so fast.
  This has made CoC the single most influential book in my life (till now).
  VG
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  19

  Pyramids and 1914

  by smudge in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have had several studies with several j.w.s as i am very interested in theology and most of my in-laws are j.w.

  on many occasions i asked to see the very complicated way that the year 1914 was obtained.

  everyone of my studies told me not to worry about it, that it involves much complicated math and it has been checked over and over and is right.

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  Van Gogh

  Interesting link, smudge.
  The calculations leading to the date of 1914 did not involve only a tape measure, a crazy man and a trip to Egypt. C. T. Russell – with an unhealthy dose of otherwise common religious arrogance and fanaticism - got carried away in arguing his case for 1914/1915 building on the case that others made for such an end-time date. This case was for a large part based on the prophesies of Daniel and the year 607BCE (refuted extensively by Carl Olof Jonsson in The Gentile Times Reconsidered). Russell actually focused more on the date of 1874.
  Why the cognitive dissonance?
  The Watchtower (Fred Franz and Rutherford) did away with the pyramids and put all their bets on Daniel and the fact that WW 1 broke out in 1914, while actively suppressing their own history; this is what many people/politicians/revolutionaries/historians/dictators/religious fanatics tend to do; JWs are thus, just like many other people, not aware of their own history.
  This exposes the WTS’s motives for promoting 1914. While the Bible or Daniel may appear to be more authoritative than a pyramid, the bible-based exegesis is of course just as flawed as pyramid-based measurements.
  The WTS is able to sell this version of the ‘Da Vinci Code’ because of the myth of increasing new spiritual light in understanding the scriptures and because of the myth or concept of spiritual cleansing by Christ in 1919 on which act they base their spiritual authority. This date in turn is derived from the faulty premise of 1914 (while in fact the WTS discarded pyramid schemes many years after 1919…). From the top down, their special status and position is the bonus that this religious leadership pays itself for the spiritual arrogance with which it keeps the R&F JW shareholders happy.
  From the bottom up it is a common human trait that the investing followers to some extent want to have their ears tickled (I did); it feels great to be part of a chosen people and the benefits of a paradise are a tempting spiritual investment opportunity (IMHO like in any religion such as Mormons, Muslims etc).
  In the end, refuting JW/WT teaching like 1914 is not simply a process of rational thought. People first get sold on benefits such as the mental picture of a paradise. Afterwards they ‘rationalize’ this ‘sale’ by the ‘features’ such as the ‘overwhelming evidence’ of prophecy ‘supporting’ these promises.
  These are some reasons why six million JWs did not bother to check out the odds for 1914 for themselves or were discouraged to do so. And even if they do, many will try to justify their investment and for some reason will want to hold on to their stake in the pension jackpot ‘pyramid’ scheme of the ‘Paradise Company Inc’ (spiritual ENRON more likely). Besides, if six million other JWs bank on it, it can’t be all that wrong, one might argue.
  The few who did bother to check 1914/607BCE out (such as Jonsson) were swiftly excommunicated/disfellowshipped and branded as apostates. Consequently, their books are forbidden to read… in the end it is a self perpetuating cycle (mechanisms occurring in any setting of society or culture). Former Governing Body member Ray Franz describes in his Crisis of Conscience how he researched 1914/607BCE in the late sixties. He describes the process of how he proceeded to ignore the evidence because of his own cognitive dissonance. The reality is that JW/WT will have their own religious niche for many years to come like any other church, cult or sect. Hasn’t the overwhelming evidence against the special status of the Watchtower Society/Faithful and Discreet Slave Class/Governing Body been around for over ninety years, ever since 1914 turned out to be a hoax?
  However, the fact that JW/WT for various reasons continues to attract more criticism on the internet than any other religion is a hopeful development that I myself consider to be a worthy investment.
  V
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  22

  Are you ex-jws serving Jehovah and Jesus out of fear of Armgeddon/Hellfire?

  by booker-t in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the cycle never ends even when you leave the wt.

  you go from one set of fears to another set of fears.

  i used to be terrified of armageddon when i was a jw and just knew i was going to get hit by a lightning bolt from jehovah on that day.

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  Van Gogh

  Finally realizing about four months ago WT/JW has about as much substance as the Da Vinci Code, I found to be very liberating indeed: no more ‘fear’ of God or Armageddon for me.
  If you are equal to everybody else in the eyes of God, what is there to fear?
  This realization to me came as an unexpected present, for I never even contemplated the possibility of WT/JW not being based on truth. As soon as I did, I was happy to leave… without hesitation.
  Consequently, I find it hard to believe in anything anymore, let alone go to another church.
  However, I really did like the idea of a hope and a better future for mankind… and myself; the only comfort for death is that everyone ultimately shares this same fate.
  But the thought of this life being ‘it’ with no apparent purpose, I find a disconcerting thought to say the least and hard to come to terms with.
  Have I in this sense gone from one set of fears to another set of fears, without going from church to church?
  
  V
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  12

  Totally depressed and don't know what to do......

  by WingCommander in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i don't know how some of you are around this time of year, but i'm just really depressed lately, more so this time of year it seems.

  because it is nearing the memorial time and now that i have a son, i am totally lost as to what to do and what to teach him concerning religion.

  my own youth was stolen by the wtbs and has made me a total wreck at times.

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  Van Gogh

  Wing Commander,
  I get the impression you are still stuck in (between): “ I'm not saying I don't agree with alot of the teachings”,
  "trying to become more active and take interest and even introduce someone new to what I considered the Truth”
  Mentally you are still defending and you are still in when you reminisce: “When I was a child (pre-1985), I saw the joy in congregations.” (Precious sentiments, I know, but the joy in the end could not stand up to the innate flaws of the system.) Yet, despite this you state: “ My own youth was stolen by the WTBS and has made me a total wreck at times.” But somehow the mere fact that you want to spare your own son this fate causes you to: “ feel confused, guilty, and depressed at all once” This is compounded by the fact that: “
  I haven't been able to share my feelings with my non-JW wife … because she wouldn't understand all of this as she hasn't grown up like I have.”

  My two cents: stop perpetuating the insane divisive JW/religious heritage/cycle of: “guilt, confusion, amazement… resentment, sorrow, and outright fear”; Stop being a victim and take charge. Invest time to research JW-beliefs, neutralize them, liberate yourself and find peace. Start grieving about this properly and quit expecting the impossible of yourself. You can then start talking to your wife because you won’t have to defend what you have known to be indefensible all along. Forgive your parents and grandparents for having slaved in a senseless system, and for having brought you up in it; they did the best they could. Recognize the anger directed against yourself for having believed and actively propagated all this stuff; forgive yourself as well. Then forgive all the heartless ones and view them as victims of the system. Start heaping praise upon yourself for being smart enough to see through all the crap and having the courage to leave it behind you and rise above it. (As your situation mirrors mine, I’ll start trying to apply this counsel to myself now.)

  V
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  35

  Biting my tongue at last nights bookstudy

  by GBSJG in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so i went to last nights bookstudy which discusses 6 paragraphs of the daniel book so there was lots of room for comment.

  the study itself already was pretty frustrating it was taken from chapter 17 paragraphs 24-29 and it goes on about how the fds has to be lead by jehovah because of all the prophecies of daniel that fits them (1335 days was this convention to that etc etc).

  but the paragraphs also mention the failed prediction for 1925. here are some interresting quotes from the book: .

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  Van Gogh

  Welcome to this board GBSJG!
  
  The level of cognitive dissonance is indeed distressing; unfortunately, I myself have again had some harrowing reminders of this in the past weeks myself.
  I find it to be a fascinating phenomena that I’m able to analyze on a cerebral level, but emotionally and on a personal level harder and harder to deal with. I stopped visiting JWD and posting for a while as at the time I felt I needed to leave things behind me and focus positively on my future private situation.
  The WT/JW belief system and practices seem to tap into something profoundly vulnerable; seeing it for what it is, is a Kafkaesque experience: a (former?) close JW friend – well read and erudite for that matter - recently likened me to those living in the Nazi era that were caught up in their hateful delusions. We can understand the ‘others’ for all we like – we were there ourselves, weren’t we? – but it is a one-way street, there is zero understanding on ‘their’ part. It sometimes drives you insane.
  Somewhere on this forum recently I read the system ‘steals your soul’. Especially having been brought up in it, some can feel violated and betrayed. In ‘good faith’ many of us from innocent trusting childhood onward adopted and actively propagated its beliefs via our well-meaning parents. Like many victims in an abusive cycle we feel complicit and part of our anger is directed against ourselves for being so compliant.
  The ongoing association with it (in this case the book study) seems to act as a lobotomy-inducing poison for most. For a minority it provokes impotent anger calling for an antidote of constantly reaffirming common sense. In this case the Daniel book acts like a soothing opium. Try merely telling a drug addict or alcoholic his ways are destructive and arresting his/her personal development into lethargy. Words and arguments don’t cut it for those that are not ready or willing. It goes much deeper than that.
  For many of us it were the negative experiences that finally induced us to think further; as much as words and arguments were not the sole reason for many to join the religion in the first place, and words and arguments in the field service, to our once amazement, fail(ed) to trick people into it. That is why many of us need to return to this board time and again for personal and mutual support, our spiritual AA for defense.
  Walk on; keep walking; you are not alone.
  
  V
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  30

  Did you drink to get over being a Witness?

  by free2beme in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i first left the witnesses, i had some times of being really pissed at all the wasted time and the way the people acted.

  i remember one time, my spouse and i decided to just get ripped.

  we did and as we did, we laughed and even cried at times over the issues.

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  Van Gogh

  My dad had been a prominent PO in the early seventies. For no apparent reason he completely went off the rails just after 1975. Unemployed and all, he started drinking heavily and violently on and off for some years. He was disfellowshipped for it twice. After my mom killed herself because of it, he was left no option but to finish the job by drinking himself to death.
  He managed to stay alive until '75...